Who's the Socialist Now?

You may have heard the charge from one presidential candidate that the other is a socialist -- that's because he talked about sharing the wealth.

So, as you ponder that charge, hear this song from Mary -- the Magnificat -- and ask yourself who the real socialist is?

And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he made to our ancestors,
to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”
(Luke 1:46-55)

Comments

Chad McDaniel said…
love this post...was just reading some garbage on a conservative site the other night suggesting mccain's only way to win is to start calling attention to how Obama is a "socialist." i wonder how we are to read Acts 2 and 4 about the early church? oh no! does God want us to share our wealth? nah....
Allan R. Bevere said…
Bob:

I am completely uninterested in whether or not Barack Obama is a socialist. It seems to me that the whole discussion is beside the point.

But to use Mary's Magnificat to promote socialism is just as silly as using the Bible to promote a free market economy. This is nothing more than Liberal Constantinianism taking the Bible out of context in order to fit a narrow political agenda.

Those who say that conservativism and liberalism are simply two sides of the same modern coin are absolutley right, and the Bible has no stake in either side.
Robert Cornwall said…
Alan,

I think you took my bait. My point is simply that using "socialism" as a point of attack is really not useful.

If you read Jesus, you will not find a pro-capitalist message. It's more likely you'll find something that's in line with sharing the wealth. That said, I don't think that any modern political or economic system can claim Jesus.

This passage can, I believe, be used to suggest that God would have us side with the poor against the rich. If that is socialism, then Jesus was/is a socialist. As for Obama, he's not a socialist, not even along European lines, not even along Canadian lines. I'm not a socialist either. But, again I do think we need to hear the distributive justice texts of scripture and take them seriously.
Allan R. Bevere said…
Bob: I do not disagree with much of what you say, but the longer I think about these things, the more I have come to believe that such verbage as "distributive justice" and being "against the rich" are unhelpful in working through the issues.

It makes for wonderfully attractive populist politics (which both presidential candidates are touting, much to my chagrin), but provides for little in the way of actual solutions.

Having taken the bait on your post, at least I do not feel as silly as others will, who have taken the bait that either candidate for president will "fix" (whatever that might mean) our economic troubles. Of course, we will only know that one of them will not be able to do it, since the other one will not be given the opportunity to fail.
Robert Cornwall said…
Alan,

The future is dark -- No one knows what will happen. No matter who wins the election, George Bush remains president into late January. Neither candidate will be able to solve all the problems.

As for the rich/poor issue. I'm not a proponent of class warfare. I'm a liberal, but not a radical on this. I do believe that the more you have the more responsibilities you have. I think Joe Biden is right, it is the patriotic duty of the wealthy to step up to the plate.

But, Barack Obama isn't a socialist. He's a Democrat who believes that government has an important role in solving problems. That takes tax dollars. The wealthy are better able to pay than are the middle class.

I was born and raised a Republican, and that background is part of who I am as a person.
Anonymous said…
Good discussion.. actually agree that to use the Bible to create an economic system will either be lacking, or the sacrifice required no one would want to do. Remember all the gifts for the temple?

As for being patriotic to pay taxes, I laugh at this considering roughly half of Americans don't pay any tax.. are they unpatriotic. If any tax structure is in the Bible.. its a FLAT TAX!! Tithe 10%! Man, I wish that would be thrown around. Why do we have to ladder taxes anyway? Maybe I am naive, but this "get the rich" seems comical since there are a lot fewer rich people after this recession is done.
Anonymous said…
Doesn't the New Testament tell us to "give as God prospers you" (sorry, I can't find the reference). In other words - no more flat "tax" of 10%. Some of us can give 90%, others only 2%, but all can give.
The problem with socialism comes from the fact that it is administered by fallen people who are trying to figure out some sort of equitable arrangement of wealth (that's questionable at times) but then it is thrust upon the masses, whereas the sharing of all things in common in Acts is coming from a Spirit led paradigm. It is freely chosen and offered as a response. Perhaps if we try to create a system out of it, we reduce it and perhaps kill it.
Anonymous said…
Right, the Bible is probably not the best source for constructing an economic system. But the Bible is not only useful for evaluating the efficacy of economic systems, our faith teaches us that its principles should serve as THE PLUMBLINE for the issues of justice raised by our economic system. While we have gone about our business of stewarding the resources which God has given us, have we made the effort to show compassion to the less fortunate? Have we been good neighbors?

John
Anonymous said…
It's odd to me that so many seem to believe that the current market system is somehow a free market system and that the rich got rich within the free working of that market. It's never been a free market. It's always been a construct, a convention, designed by government to achieve some certain set of conditions. On the whole, the government's decisions have been well meant but not always able to bear the intended fruit. The result is a 'socialized' system that has, in a sense, engineered a great separation of wealth into the hands of a very few people where it has been protected by the system itself. As some pundits have said, we have privatized opportunity and socialized risk. Overstated perhaps, but you get the point. A true conservative would argue for changing the system to create conditions favorable to a more equitable distribution of wealth, and with it a more equitable distribution of tax burden. And, before some wise guy accuses me of sour grapes, I am among those who have benefitted a great deal under the current system.
Chad McDaniel said…
obviously this is a little oversimplified, but why do all the "haves" i talk to lean toward McCain while the "have-nots" i know are excited about something new and Obama?

on economics and the Bible, reference the Torah...God's ideas about economics are quite interesting...
Anonymous said…
Biblical economics starts with the premises that God owns everything and that it is to be expected that wealth and property will accumulate in a few to the detriment of the many, and that radical redistribution (Jubilee) must recur routinely to protect the less fortunate and to remind all, rich and poor, that God is in charge and is the source of all that is.

There is no evidence that Jubilee was ever practiced, and as such the concept may have been more of a warning against the unavoidable pitfalls of unbridaled acquisitiveness.

And Scripture is replete with warnings and requirements directed to the "haves" to care for the "have nots" and that the failure to do so risks judgment on all.

John
Anonymous said…
Actually Ellen.. Jesus does promote a "grace" giving. Given that everything in worship got "bigger" in the New Testament.. you could argue that 10% is the bare minimum, but we are encouraged to give even more. What % of income did the widow give that Jesus exalted?

Its interesting too that Jesus called the pharisees the lover of money. If you remember, the Sadduces where the "rich". But the Pharisees felt entitled to receiving from the rich, thus having a spiteful attitude toward the rich. I think we see this today as well.. where people feel entitled to money and want to almost punish the rich.

Finally.. giving was also an act of WORSHIP. Giving now seems to be something we have to do rather than freely do.
Anonymous said…
"Giving" is an act of worship, the "Widow's Mite" being the clearest teaching on this point. The mite was not going to materially contribute to the maintenance of the temple, but such generosity on the widow's part underscores her relationship with God and her willingness to self-sacrifice in the name of God.

The fact that the others gave so much more, and materially contributed so much greater to the needs of the temple was not worthy of Jesus respect - because the "giving" for those people was not in any way worshipful, but mere "duty."

John
Robert Cornwall said…
I have been enjoying watching the conversation grow. Words like "socialism" often need to get unpacked. The idea that in America we have "privatized opportunity and socialized risk" is an interesting one. One could say that the recent bailout is as socialist as America gets -- and both presidential candidates voted for it.

Economic systems grow, evolve, fall and reform. We cannot go back to the agrarian model of the Bible. John maybe right that jubilee is an enshrined principle that rarely if ever got implemented.

So, what do we do? I think there are principles in the biblical text that can help guide our response. There is a constant theme that calls for us to heed the needs of the poor and stricken among us. There are verses that suggest that God stands on the side of the powerless and stands against the powerful (which might be a warning to the U.S.). Most important of all is the call to love one's neighbor, and Jesus made it clear that the neighbor isn't just the guy next door you like to party with.

Keep on sending in the comments!

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