tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post1670881512319235281..comments2024-02-19T13:11:04.970-05:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: We Need to Talk -- About HomosexualityRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-86991621770892637552011-12-13T11:21:34.133-05:002011-12-13T11:21:34.133-05:00Yes, God has spoken.
The issue is whether we have...Yes, God has spoken.<br /><br />The issue is whether we have heard.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-66492690158955357812011-12-13T09:31:37.363-05:002011-12-13T09:31:37.363-05:00John,
God has spoken on the subject, and you have...John,<br /><br />God has spoken on the subject, and you have rejected what God has said.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-79710083334468756912011-12-13T08:46:15.112-05:002011-12-13T08:46:15.112-05:00Strictly speaking the New Testament does not rule ...Strictly speaking the New Testament does not rule out multiple wives, except I think for elders in the Church. But let us say that you are right, that in Jesus time he concluded that the institution of marriage should change to accommodate new circumstances. Multiple wives as often seen in the Old Testament was to be no more. Not that the old was wrong or bad, but that times have changed and what was once the norm, should no longer be the norm. Times change.<br /><br />Actually, both Jesus and Paul seem to see marriage as a distraction from the greater task of discipleship. However, both permit marriage as a safe outlet for sexual passion. Seen in this way marriage then becomes a tool to protect the individual and society from the consequences of promiscuity. As such, why then not allow homosexuals a similar sanctuary, they are just as sexual as heterosexuals and we all can benefit from allowing them the same sanctuary.<br /><br />Who am I to challenge what's fair and unfair? Iam am a man who believes that my God is just, and perfectly so. I am a man who believes that my God loves his creation deeply and who would always give his children bread and not stones to eat. So when I see unfairness I am called, like Job, to speak out and to contend with God, seeking for an explanation of why injustice should prevail. <br /><br />God may not provide me with an explanation, but God will surely vindicate me for my certainty that God is compassionate and just and that God wills for a compassionate and just world, and that any injustice in the world is not of God. And God will chastise those who would tolerate injustice or worse, those who would believe that God wills that injustice should prevail or that compassion is precluded by blind adherence to warn out and outdated rules created for another time, place and purpose.<br /><br />Jesus invites us into a different way of interpreting Scripture when he says "you have heard it said....but I say....". Try this: You have heard it said, 'be fruitful and multiply,' but I say 'let your fruit be compassion and share it without limit.'Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-7691751290309258672011-12-13T00:41:00.814-05:002011-12-13T00:41:00.814-05:00John,
In the New Testament, marriage is one man a...John,<br /><br />In the New Testament, marriage is one man and one woman.<br /><br />Who do you think you are that you can complain that God is unfair to limit marriage to one man and one woman? Or that He must allow sex outside of marriage?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-82392049389236244822011-12-12T23:24:54.418-05:002011-12-12T23:24:54.418-05:00Jumping all over the place.
The Bible does not li...Jumping all over the place.<br /><br />The Bible does not limit marriage as between one man and one woman. The circumstance of multiple wives is commonly represented. Are you suggesting that the marriage parameters of the Old Testament should prevail in all times and in all cultures? Slavery was also normative in biblical times - no one would claim that it should be normative for today. Times change.<br /><br />You are right that Jesus spoke against illicit sex. But he condemned their accusers far more harshly.<br /><br />And the notion of preventing homosexuals from marrying and then accusing them of illicit unmarried sex is rather unfair and and morally disingenuous.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-74004289416051676532011-12-12T23:03:31.622-05:002011-12-12T23:03:31.622-05:00John,
God also gave rules governing sexuality. A...John,<br /><br />God also gave rules governing sexuality. According to the entire New Testament, including what Jesus taught, all sex outside of marriage is prohibited. <br /> <br />According to the New Testament, God allows marriage between people who are qualified to marry. What are the qualifications?<br />1. You must be unmarried. If you are already married, you may not marry again.<br />2. You must marry someone of the opposite sex. A marriage consists of the union of a husband, who must be a man, and a wife, who must be a woman.<br /><br />So, according to the entire New Testament, including what Jesus taught, God made no provision whatsoever for homosexuality to be moral. Homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, are not permitted to engage in sex outside of marriage. And there is no such thing as same-sex marriage. The concept is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.<br /><br />I haven't even mentioned the explicit condemnations of what we call homosexuality that are found in the New Testament.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-91186300922116237682011-12-12T22:22:42.781-05:002011-12-12T22:22:42.781-05:00Gary,
Human sexuality is a gift from God. It man...Gary,<br /><br />Human sexuality is a gift from God. It manifests itself in each of us a little differently, thus the gift is different for each of us, but it is still a gift. <br /><br />The Bible does not quote Jesus speaking about homosexuality. Nevertheless, I know that Jesus loves me and I am just as certain that he loves you, and the same for the homosexual that lives around the block from you. <br /><br />And I know how Jesus would react if he were confronted with the issue. I know that Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery even though her neighbors were outraged, and even though Jesus was well aware not only that she was guilty of this biblically proscribed behavior, but also that the prescribed penalty was death, the same penalty for someone found engaging in homosexual conduct. I can only assume that if you brought a homosexual before him he would respond to the homosexual the same way, "neither do I condemn you." And I think he would respond to you in the same way he would respond to the woman's accusers.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-19616485078686505282011-12-12T21:25:59.790-05:002011-12-12T21:25:59.790-05:00John,
You don't know what Jesus thought about...John,<br /><br />You don't know what Jesus thought about it? <br /><br />"The question is whether homosexuality is illicit under the morality taught by Jesus."<br /><br />Yes, that is the question, isn't it? So what is your answer, and how do you know you are correct?<br /><br />Did you mean to suggest that homosexuality is a gift from God?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-50398126313939215342011-12-12T20:45:47.466-05:002011-12-12T20:45:47.466-05:00Gary,
I doubt Jesus spent much time thinking abou...Gary,<br /><br />I doubt Jesus spent much time thinking about homosexuality at all. However, my assumption is that he loved and continues to love homosexuals every bit as much as he loved and loves heterosexuals, and that his concern was exercised against those who would judge others for the gifts given to them instead worrying about their own salvation.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-84268573950346114152011-12-12T20:34:11.074-05:002011-12-12T20:34:11.074-05:00Jesus said,
"There is nothing from without a...Jesus said,<br /><br />"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him." Mark 7:15Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14838352480437931237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-43823766834894969892011-12-12T19:54:27.878-05:002011-12-12T19:54:27.878-05:00John,
What did Jesus think of homosexuality?John,<br /><br />What did Jesus think of homosexuality?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-52350143942039219242011-12-12T19:05:25.686-05:002011-12-12T19:05:25.686-05:00Gary,
See, now we've lost the nice narrow pat...Gary,<br /><br />See, now we've lost the nice narrow path we were following. We've fallen to quibbling about objective and subjective and let go of the core of the discussion.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-58640372316448597812011-12-12T18:56:58.136-05:002011-12-12T18:56:58.136-05:00Gary,
"Subjective" does not mean "...Gary,<br /><br />"Subjective" does not mean "not real." The question is whether homosexuality is illicit under the morality taught by Jesus. To understand the morality taught by Jesus we must talk a little about what the tradition he began from teaches about morality, and what constitutes a grave sin, as I assume you regard homosexuality.<br /><br />Eventually we get to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 5: you have heard it said..., well I say...! Here Jesus rejects an objective standard as deficient and prone to literalism and instead calls us to a highly subjective standard, one that turns on the spirit of the law, and one that relies on compassion and a high regard for the "other". His standard is a genuine standard and he is serious in calling us to it.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-17544632937597601622011-12-12T18:38:20.138-05:002011-12-12T18:38:20.138-05:00John,
"Morality is subjective." Said y...John,<br /><br />"Morality is subjective." Said you.<br /><br />If morality is subjective then why do we need to argue about whether homosexuality is moral? If there is no objective standard of morality that applies to everyone, then we are each free to do as we please and define morality for ourselves. Or not.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-76661818103083457332011-12-12T18:31:01.759-05:002011-12-12T18:31:01.759-05:00Sorry to use the word John, but it does have a def...Sorry to use the word John, but it does have a definition. <br /><br />It appears to be a mistranslation from toevah. Interesting examples are here, I'll not cut and paste.<br /><br />http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/2826/does_the_bible_really_call_homosexuality_an_%E2%80%9Cabomination%E2%80%9DDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-37067291013061139812011-12-12T18:17:45.279-05:002011-12-12T18:17:45.279-05:00Pedophilia seems like a modern abomination, but I ...Pedophilia seems like a modern abomination, but I don't recall seeing that in the Bible. I'm sure they existed then as now.<br /><br />It all boils down to the Golden Rule, with God included as a significant "other". I can live with that.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-26947406252027925272011-12-12T16:46:31.234-05:002011-12-12T16:46:31.234-05:00I want to begin in the Hebrew Bible. The Old Test...I want to begin in the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament contains a number of rules governing the behavior of the people of God. Christians do not observe, nor even give any deference to most of those rules. <br /><br />So many actions are identified as an abomination in the Old Testament which contemporary Christians take for granted that the term abomination really has no meaning. So the question has to be asked which prohibitions and which requirements from the Old Testament apply to Christians? <br /><br />While the Old Testament offers little help on this, I suppose we could cite Isaiah 56:6-7 "6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it, and hold fast my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."<br /><br />Isaiah suggests that it comes down to whether one serves the Lord, keeps the Sabbath, and holds to the Covenant. God's requirements for non-Jews are very different from the purity code imposed on Jews. <br /><br />Jeremiah31:31-34 says: "31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt--a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the LORD," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more. <br /><br />Micah proclaims the requirements simply: "to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."<br /><br />The grand total of all of that is to say that 'loving kindness,' and 'looking into your heart' for the law of God which has written there, these are critical to keeping covenant with God. And keeping the Sabbath. <br /><br />Highest and most important of the requirements is to love God and love your neighbor - whom God also loves. A grave sin then would be to behave in such a way as to demonstrate a lack of love for God or for one's neighbor.<br /><br />Eating shellfish or marrying divorced person seems to be OKJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-26802560857823103292011-12-12T15:31:46.348-05:002011-12-12T15:31:46.348-05:00Gary,
Morality is subjective.
There may be a l...Gary,<br /><br />Morality is subjective. <br /><br />There may be a lot of points of agreement between your moral code and mine but I think we can agree that there are distinct points of disagreement. As to those points of disagreement, for the most part one or the other of us is not objectively wrong, we just don't see things the same way. For example when, in your passion, you make unkind statements about your opponents, I would call that immoral behavior. I regard insults as immoral because they are hurtful and they place both the one insulted as well as the one doing the insulting in a poor light, and they are hurtful to the community at large. On the other hand, I assume that you believe that such behavior is not governed by morality so you believe you are free to say what you will. <br /><br />To answer your last question, I think I can, but I need for us to agree on a common point of beginning, 'principles' or 'specific rules.' The risk is that we will keep switching back and forth and not remain tracked on the argument at hand. You are already signaling an intention to jump back and forth as the moment suits you.<br /><br />You said specific rules should govern. So with that I can begin.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-56786795767815145392011-12-12T14:18:34.535-05:002011-12-12T14:18:34.535-05:00John,
Whether homosexuality is moral is not subje...John,<br /><br />Whether homosexuality is moral is not subjective. What is said about it in the Bible is definitive for me. Can you prove that what we now call homosexuality is moral from the Bible?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-46496668181634558322011-12-12T13:51:14.234-05:002011-12-12T13:51:14.234-05:00John,
I don't think your going to keep Gary&#...John,<br /><br />I don't think your going to keep Gary's attention long enough for what you're trying to do, but I'd still be interested in hearing where you're going with this.Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14838352480437931237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-38367107883427431552011-12-12T13:38:06.471-05:002011-12-12T13:38:06.471-05:00That's the problem, shortcuts show nothing but...That's the problem, shortcuts show nothing but short changed analysis.<br /><br />How can possibly show something is moral (a subjective determination) if we are not sharing the same moral standard. My hope is to employ Scripture to address this, but I need to be clear between us on just how you limit the use of Scripture. <br /><br />I could just throw out a whole bunch of quotes, or I could cite you to other online resources which make arguments. My guess however is that neither of those approaches will be particularly persuasive (not that any approach will necessarily be persuasive) but at least if I can fashion my own approach, I can own it and you will know where I am coming from. If I do anything less, you will just throw back your own quotes and cite me to your own online resources. In which case we have just chased around in a big circle for nothing.<br /><br />If that's what you want, then OK I cannot do better than to cite you to the Walter Wink cite listed above by Brian. But that doesn't really answer your challenge does it?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-63068627721368571062011-12-12T13:04:34.888-05:002011-12-12T13:04:34.888-05:00John,
Take the shortcut. Just prove that homosex...John,<br /><br />Take the shortcut. Just prove that homosexuality is moral. What evidence do you have?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-15302580089462589652011-12-12T12:43:33.564-05:002011-12-12T12:43:33.564-05:00Gary,
I will address requirements and prohibition...Gary,<br /><br />I will address requirements and prohibitions later today, but while were on moral principles, are you referring to moral principles outside of Scriptures? If you are referring to moral principles within Scriptures would identify them. I want to do this step by step so it doesn't become a shouting match.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-17881975502675469312011-12-12T09:52:26.527-05:002011-12-12T09:52:26.527-05:00John,
Yes, prohibitions are controlling. But it ...John,<br /><br />Yes, prohibitions are controlling. But it is prohibited by moral principles as well.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-62003543839294714742011-12-12T07:13:21.083-05:002011-12-12T07:13:21.083-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.com