tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post3124556638758591353..comments2024-03-28T10:26:20.408-04:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: Atonement -- Theories in ConflictRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-42596884200483268842010-08-06T11:51:44.606-04:002010-08-06T11:51:44.606-04:00I feel really dense. I have no idea what Mr. Jone...I feel really dense. I have no idea what Mr. Jones was saying.<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-6148620055031775482010-08-05T12:36:56.050-04:002010-08-05T12:36:56.050-04:00"It is not those who hear the law who are rig..."It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13<br />Jesus limits the understanding of what he has perfected by his crucifixion to only a few finding it. Secondly 1 Cor. 2:6-8 states that if the actual reason for Jesus' crucifixion would have been able to be determined before his crucifixion he would not have been crucified. The fact you are missing is that by Jesus' crucifixion, it being the sin of murder caused by bloodshed, a change has been made to the law by adding a word. See Rom. 5:20 & Heb. 7:12. Therefore Jesus' crucifixion can only be a benefit to any individual by the faith of accounting directly to God as he demands in regard to bloodshed by the addition of a law. <br />"And for Your life blood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man too I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man." <br />Theodore A. JonesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-1049577713714410962009-05-29T16:24:44.361-04:002009-05-29T16:24:44.361-04:00I've posted my thoughts on the atonement in an art...I've posted my thoughts on the atonement in an article located at http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/the-lamb-that-was-slain.Ron Henzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02433743384047640111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-85067795268733294742009-05-26T01:06:46.785-04:002009-05-26T01:06:46.785-04:00Chuck,
You said: "I think the question I would n...Chuck,<br /><br />You said: "I think the question I would normally ask on that parable was if the person was saved originally?"<br /><br />My response is that the Master said the servant was forgiven - that's it. The act of forgiveness, the absolution, comes complete from the master and nothing is required of the servant to receive it except the plea for mercy. <br /><br />It was not granted on a probationary basis - it was granted by the master without reservation. The master did not make a mistake in granting the servant forgiveness.<br /><br />But gratitude is always required, and here genuine gratitude included the notion of "paying forward" the forgiveness he received.<br /><br />We are called to "be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven;" Luke 6:36-37.<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-90990893995535679302009-05-25T23:12:42.269-04:002009-05-25T23:12:42.269-04:00I’m reminded of something off the original topic.
...I’m reminded of something off the original topic.<br />Humor seems so important to us. Why isn’t there more (any?) humor in the Bible? What is the history of humor? Am I missing it? Is Monty Python’s Life of Brian okay to laugh at? <br /><br />If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you. <br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />G’nite- David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-85340543383051991862009-05-25T22:56:17.823-04:002009-05-25T22:56:17.823-04:00And if I'm ever over the line, I hope I'm told. If...And if I'm ever over the line, I hope I'm told. If I don't apologize first.<br /><br />Have a great summer.<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-41248358703742177152009-05-25T22:42:43.577-04:002009-05-25T22:42:43.577-04:00Don't worry Chuck, I never meant to give the impre...Don't worry Chuck, I never meant to give the impression I felt a prick. No pun intended. I always enjoy the conversation too.<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-73486493715768210512009-05-25T22:10:13.035-04:002009-05-25T22:10:13.035-04:00John,
I'm glad to see you looked into my PSub deb...John,<br /><br />I'm glad to see you looked into my PSub debate, I admit it is 'long' but it is important information and I'm glad to see some people with enough drive to at least read the opening Essay. I'd be glad to see what else you have to say, either here or by emailing me.<br /><br />And Mat 18:23-35 is one of the most powerful texts showing salvation can be lost, and it is amazing to see the amount of "gymnastics" people go through to not make it say that.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-83464848716802259662009-05-25T22:02:16.662-04:002009-05-25T22:02:16.662-04:00I love this post.. its been great conversation. D...I love this post.. its been great conversation. David, please don't misunderstand my use of the verse. It was only to point to the seriousness of sin in the Lord's eyes vs any kind of self mutilation request. David I know you have a sharp wit and please understand my goal is never to take personal jabs.. only to spark good/thoughtful conversation.<br /><br />John, interesting prospective that I haven't researched or walked through that idea. I think the question I would normally ask on that parable was if the person was saved originally? Is this like hearing the word and rejecting it? Many hear that there sins are forgiven but fail to worship or lead the life. Again.. I am guessing, so these statement are ripe to be ripped to shreds. Its an interesting parable to dig deeper into.<br /><br />ChuckAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-39781930613164751982009-05-25T21:32:28.403-04:002009-05-25T21:32:28.403-04:00John,
Did you expect me to read the whole thing?
...John,<br /><br />Did you expect me to read the whole thing?<br /><br />Also along the way to the end, which you describe, we're told to forgive 7 x 7 = 490 times (I'm nearly there with one brother of mine) and that "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". I always wonereded why s/he didn't include one person? Anyway, you're right. A very good parable at the end. Several lessons.<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-67818126718543877282009-05-25T19:21:06.768-04:002009-05-25T19:21:06.768-04:00Chuck,
In Mt 18 the master forgives his servant a...Chuck,<br /><br />In Mt 18 the master forgives his servant an enormous debt. Instead of taking his cue from his master, the servant then goes out and sends his fellow slaves to debtors prison when he cold not immediately repay a relatively minor debt. When the master got wind of this failure to "pass it on" he has the forgiven servant dragged back before, retracts the forgiveness and condemns him to torture until the debt is fully paid. Jesus concludes by saying: "So my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart." <br /><br />I have always read this as saying that the forgiveness we receive from God compels us to forgive each other; and our failure to do so is perhaps the worst sin we could be guilty of, as no other sin Jesus discusses carries a threat of similar degree of punishment.<br /><br />I read the withdrawal of forgiveness in Mt 18 as equal to the withdrawal of salvation because it seems illogical that you can be saved and yet remain unforgiven.<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-46540940005932025922009-05-25T17:40:36.681-04:002009-05-25T17:40:36.681-04:00I think the main point of Matthew 18 is not to giv...I think the main point of Matthew 18 is not to give a true beliver too much of a hard time. Which is why I'm so kind to Chuck. Otherwise I shall need to break off all my fingers and toes and cut off my nose, right (so I can't type)?<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-65834280110746338712009-05-25T17:36:23.782-04:002009-05-25T17:36:23.782-04:00Sorry I'm on an Oscar bender Chuck. It will pass. ...Sorry I'm on an Oscar bender Chuck. It will pass. By the way, I'm not sure if I know you in real life, but thanks for posting so much...<br /><br />Vile deeds like poison weeds bloom well in prison air, it is only what is good in man, that wastes and withers there.<br /><br />I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability.<br /><br />And, I really do hope this is true of Cheney, but suspect not..<br /><br />Whenever a man does a thoroughly stupid thing, it is always from the noblest motives. <br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-91362180253612464302009-05-25T16:33:37.493-04:002009-05-25T16:33:37.493-04:00Can you build out how Matthew 18 shows a loss of s...Can you build out how Matthew 18 shows a loss of salvation? These verses definitely talk of church discipline.. but not sure the salvation link? It also speaks of the need for "punishment" for sin. "It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell" Its also interesting that chapter contains a verse on torture.. which has been a recurring theme: "In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed" <br /><br />ChuckAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-86072967591592043802009-05-25T14:13:30.871-04:002009-05-25T14:13:30.871-04:00as for Custer-
A thing is not necessarily true be...as for Custer-<br /><br />A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. <br /><br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-17544649108201710022009-05-25T14:11:30.105-04:002009-05-25T14:11:30.105-04:00John, aren't we all. Didn't/ won't each of us thro...John, aren't we all. Didn't/ won't each of us throughout all time??<br /><br />"Jesus is in some mysterious fashion coexistent with the Creator, with God the father, if you will"<br /><br />David Mc<br /><br />The mystery of love is greater than the mystery of death. <br /><br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />Religion is like a blind man looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it. <br /><br />Oscar WildeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-91536936984466793172009-05-25T13:48:52.977-04:002009-05-25T13:48:52.977-04:00"Custer died for our sins."
I assume you mean the..."Custer died for our sins."<br /><br />I assume you mean the way we treated the American Indians Steve.<br />Will we ever be forgiven? I caught some of a PBS special that did a nice job of chronicling the history of the original Americans a couple weeks ago. It explained some of their religion and prayers, which was very inspiring.<br /><br />What about the one I saw last week on a car that had two big heads sticking out..<br /><br />"Dog is my copilot". I’m not sure If the driver was serious, or if it was like a “fish with feet”.<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-66311216107333576232009-05-25T11:22:20.738-04:002009-05-25T11:22:20.738-04:00On question (1) I tend to focus on John 1, as the ...On question (1) I tend to focus on John 1, as the face of God in this world, come to dwell among us; on Matthew 28, I will be with you always; and on Mark 8:29, who do you say that I am.<br /><br />Jesus is in some mysterious fashion coexistent with the Creator, with God the father, if you will. I believe his presence on earth was intended in the first instance to provide a humanly recognizable glimpse of the divine and a corrective to the legalism which God found unacceptable, being a God of compassion and not merely formal justice. <br /><br />Moreover, I think the the question, "who do you say that I am?" is an invitation to each of us to enter into and participate in a relationship with Jesus, a relationship over which we have some control, a relationship which is intended to more than one sided - not between equals, but between participants each with their own dignity of person. Imagine the character, the power and strength, sense of selfhood of a Creator-God who values the creation so much that the creation is invested with such status in the relationship with its Creator!<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-60288218468216146782009-05-25T08:18:39.903-04:002009-05-25T08:18:39.903-04:00Nick,
I have to agree with your negative construc...Nick,<br /><br />I have to agree with your negative constructive essay that there are devastating arguments against the notion of penal substitution, especially the point that salvation can be lost (Mt 18), and the fact that there will come a day of judgment, as well as the point from Paul that the builder will be saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:9-16) [I struggle with the last text, but my perception is that it points to the notion that God wills the salvation of all, but that we will personally answer for the evil we have done].<br /><br />I am still reviewing the whole debate and will respond with more later.<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-57911232964055164452009-05-25T02:27:59.312-04:002009-05-25T02:27:59.312-04:00As for my view of why Jesus had to die, nothing I'...As for my view of why Jesus had to die, nothing I've seen since I first saw this bumper sticker has improved upon it.<br /><br />"Custer died for our sins."Stevehttp://www.clergyunited.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-14375611053959902022009-05-23T23:50:06.996-04:002009-05-23T23:50:06.996-04:00You said: "If you read through the New Testament, ...You said: "If you read through the New Testament, especially the letters of Paul, but the others as well, you will come across the word atonement."<br /><br />Nick: I think you should be very careful here, as surprising as this may sound, your comment is false. The term "atonement" hardly ever appears in the New Testament, and some argue it doesn't appear at all!<br />The only place Paul uses the term is in Rom 3:25, but since it's the same term as Hebrews 9:5 for "mercy seat," some say Rm 3:25 isn't even a clear case. <br /><br /><br />You said: "Instead, I believe that they would take their cue from Anselm's "satisfaction" theory. We are a sinful people, and justice requires that a penalty be paid. We should pay it, but we're incapable of doing so, and thus Jesus has stepped forward to take our penalty."<br /><br />Nick: Just for clarity sake, St Anselm did NOT advocate Penal Substitution. Satisfaction is NOT the same as Penal Substitution. A solid example of the concept of satisfaction (where God's wrath is turned away and atonement made) is Phinehas in Num 25:1-13, which didn't require Penal Substitution. (In case anyone is wondering, I believe P-Sub is flatly unbiblical, and I say this based on careful reading of the Bible...NOT presuppositions that have been repeated over and over, which is sadly what most people do.)<br /><br />The term the NT frequently DOES use is "ransom" ("redeem", "redemption", etc"). The very concept of ransom contradicts P-Sub, because a ransom is a "buy back" price, not a transfer of punishment. St Anselm would see this as satisfaction, that is making reparations.<br /><br />I recently finished a Penal Substitution debate against a Calvinist and have it posted on my webpage, if anyone is interested.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-90532771460750358852009-05-23T22:35:32.224-04:002009-05-23T22:35:32.224-04:00Sorry, but I was just reading some of Oscar's othe...Sorry, but I was just reading some of Oscar's other quotes. He had some good one. I love this..<br /><br />"Man can believe the impossible, but can never believe the improbable” <br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />This is ok too..<br /><br />“The old believe everything; the middle aged suspect everything: the young know everything.” <br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-27089671632822772342009-05-23T22:30:29.830-04:002009-05-23T22:30:29.830-04:00"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are look..."We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” <br /> Oscar Wilde<br /> <br />Please be a little more specific Billy.<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-60307368356883014622009-05-23T21:57:21.725-04:002009-05-23T21:57:21.725-04:00John,
In my opinion, the devil really is in the d...John,<br /><br />In my opinion, the devil really is in the details. The village idiot can be saved if he is pure of heart. Those "smart enough" to deceive and sin are the ones intellectually challenged to save themselves, especially if Jesus' true nature was shown to them. This is more of a hunch though.<br /><br />I love your post though.<br /><br />What if the whole world "adopted" Jesus? What proud parents we'd be!<br /><br />David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-43233145960897188492009-05-23T19:15:48.200-04:002009-05-23T19:15:48.200-04:00"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall ..."And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14William Boothnoreply@blogger.com