tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post3994581183379054577..comments2024-03-28T10:26:20.408-04:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: Obedience's Rewards -- A Lectionary MeditationRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-12913972475620297022011-06-27T19:30:22.534-04:002011-06-27T19:30:22.534-04:00John, having you in Bob's audience on Sunday m...John, having you in Bob's audience on Sunday mornings keeps him on his toes, I'm sure. That certainly would be true for me! I look forward to continuing to read your posts.Steve Kindlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634130965524334750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-73499949017490314002011-06-27T13:07:03.304-04:002011-06-27T13:07:03.304-04:00Steve,
Let me begin first by stating that I see t...Steve,<br /><br />Let me begin first by stating that I see the story as metaphor. Its historicity, if it could be proven, is really not all that important to its place in Scripture.<br /><br />As for putting God in a terrible light, that all depends on the lens one brings to the interpretive effort: if you want to see abusive power it can be seen, if you want to see the end of child sacrifice as an institution it can be seen, if you want to see how faith can endure and sustain us through the most awful of challenges, then it can be seen if you want to see that God provides when you need it most, it can be seen.<br /><br />Frankly, the latter perspectives are the ones I take away today, that life, whether through the operation of powers and principalities, or mere bad luck, often puts us to the test, and the question is whether we can trust in the Lord to provide a way through. Tomorrow a different meaning may come to the fore.<br /><br />That the writers of Scripture contrived this test as coming from God may merely indicate that they perceived all things, good or bad, as being from God, because God created all things. But there is no reason not to see the story as a metaphor for the trials and tribulations we all endure. In such case what is learned by Abraham? That he could retain his faithfulness, and that God would remain faithful.<br /><br />My queries regarding God's knowledge come from my own uncertainties about the limits of what God can know. While I know the limits are there, I do not know where to draw the line - and I don't need to know. The lesson(s) learned by God are really irrelevant to us humans, even if they could ever be known. So I reconsider the story in terms of what the less divine characters know and don't know - and what they learn. <br /><br />How many time do we enter a time of testing filled with uncertainties as to whether we are equal to the challenge? The lesson for me is that If I can endure, God will endure through it with me.<br /><br />In the grand scheme of things whether Abraham "passed" or "failed" the test was not going to be a 'game changer' for God. There would always be forgiveness and another test when the time was right. But for Abraham - to know he could endure this most emotionally painful of challenges to his faith in God and to be affirmed in his confidence that God would be with him throughout was indeed a 'game changer' for Abraham.<br /><br />So ultimately I interpret this story as teaching more about us humans than about God.<br /><br />God knows what God knows. God will become what God will become. Do we have the faith to stay with God, when it looks like God has turned away from us? <br /><br />I guess I am just reinterpreting the story as a different telling of the core truth of the Job story.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-69676670920783008312011-06-27T12:30:13.016-04:002011-06-27T12:30:13.016-04:00John, again you have responded with a very thought...John, again you have responded with a very thoughtful comment. I can’t go very far with you on this because you seem to take this fable as fact and I don’t. If historically reliable in every detail, it presents God in the worst light, putting a loving father in such a harrowing position. So we have to ask what the point of the story is (setting aside the gory details). Here we agree at least that it turns on a question of faithfulness. This story’s necessary extremes settle forever the question in favor of Abraham.<br /><br />To press the point a bit, if the angel is an angel and not God, why not just ask God, who presumably knows everything, if Abe is a faithful servant, instead of putting him through this test, presumably with God’s knowledge? Of course the “angel” is a theophany. You see, by pressing this story’s implications, we ask too much of it. Much like asking where Cain got his wife. These are fables. They were not meant to bear the weight of close scrutiny.<br /><br />Not being a very skilled Process theologian, I can only say that my view of God’s non omniscience is compatible, but would not want to defend it in Process terms. From the first, God is characterized as an experimenter. God creates humanity and then is sorry and decides to end the experiment. One hears God lamenting, “If I only had known how this would have turned out, I never would have done it!” (The KJV says God “repents.”) Prior to this, God creates Adam (ha adam, the creature) content with it as the only occupant in Eden, until God recognizes the creature’s loneliness and then goes about to rectify it. God first experiments with creating the animals as a suitable helpmeet for Adam, and only after that fails, creates Eve. Then in the wilderness with Moses, God is so disillusioned with the complaining Israelites that he wants to kill them all and start over with Moses. Such are the consequences for God with giving free will to humans. The outcomes are yet to be known.<br /><br />If your statement is true, “The problem is that if we conclude that God has now learned something not previously known about Abraham, the information is so circumstantially limited as to be useless,” then we must ask, why did God put Abraham through this at all? If God “knew Abraham’s heart,” then putting him through this terror is even more despicable. No. I must take this story at face value and conclude that God, indeed, needed to know with assurance that Abraham could be counted on to fulfill God’s will for him.Steve Kindlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634130965524334750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-46703832391080280772011-06-24T14:18:26.310-04:002011-06-24T14:18:26.310-04:00Hesed.
Also, I am working under the assumption th...Hesed.<br /><br />Also, I am working under the assumption that the Genesis stories were assembled and edited well after the time of David and perhaps around the time of the Exile and that they are set forth as a backstory to the Exodus, where God's response to his chosen people is most certainly characterized by love. In which case the notion of God's loving kindness and of God's enduring faithfulness are God's paramount characteristics and therefore, it is not surprising that the editor would communicate narratives which showcase such divine characteristics. Such an understanding of God is critical to the survival of the Jews as a people.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-30249943451982808132011-06-24T14:03:53.074-04:002011-06-24T14:03:53.074-04:00John, I'm not sure that inherent in the Genesi...John, I'm not sure that inherent in the Genesis story is the idea that this is a loving relationship. Abraham seems to act of obedience to God, faithfully, perhaps blindly, but I don't think it's a matter of a loving relationship.<br /><br />What does Abraham discover in this? That God will provide. What does God learn? That Abraham will follow through, no matter what!Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-14625583886545898602011-06-24T13:56:15.740-04:002011-06-24T13:56:15.740-04:00Steve,
Is this the analysis of the process theolo...Steve,<br /><br />Is this the analysis of the process theologian? By the way, it is the angel speaking and not God. But let us assume that the angel utters God's message here.<br /><br />Scripture says that God knows what is in our hearts. Then surely God would know what was in Abraham's heart. But you suggest that God really doesn't know. That is a revolutionary assertion for a Christian. <br /><br />Perhaps it is true. But, if it is true, the knowledge gleaned by God is still incomplete - God does not learn what Abraham will do the next time he is confronted with the same test. People are not static and their responses are not automatic, process theology surely concedes this. <br /><br />The problem is that if we conclude that God has now learned something not previously known about Abraham, the information is so circumstantially limited as to be useless. Even the God of process theology would know that. So what then does God now know? That Abraham stands in awe of God? This is news?<br /><br />What we can say, what God can say, is that Abraham now knows how far he will go in response to God's call, and how compassionately God will be with him. And we now know how far we may have to go in response to God's call, and how compassionately God will be with us.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-73256995750606062432011-06-24T13:43:17.252-04:002011-06-24T13:43:17.252-04:00Bob,
Perhaps I am cutting too fine a line but I a...Bob,<br /><br />Perhaps I am cutting too fine a line but I am trying to draw a distinction between mere obedience - whether from reflex, fear (awe), or loyalty - and faithfulness, which is an intentional and informed response proceeding from a loving relationship. <br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-84623428153929132632011-06-24T11:53:30.321-04:002011-06-24T11:53:30.321-04:00John and Bob, you both raise interesting points ab...John and Bob, you both raise interesting points about this Old Testament fable. One aspect often missed is God's declaration, "Now I know!" The point of this test was to discover the exact degree of Abraham's faithfulness. Why? Because God here and elsewhere in the Torah is characterized as NOT omniscient. I don't think that this story is intended to answer any deeper mysteries than this. When we begin to analyze it as an historical incident, we run into questions it was not intended to address.Steve Kindlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634130965524334750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-14912834990999904922011-06-24T08:55:49.173-04:002011-06-24T08:55:49.173-04:00John,
I think that the story, as Kierkegaard demo...John,<br /><br />I think that the story, as Kierkegaard demonstrated raises a number of possibilities. One is blind obedience. We have read it as faithfulness to a loving God, but in context, does Abraham really know this to be the case? <br /><br />On the other hand, it does raise issues about how we treat/use our own children as sacrifices for our own agendas.<br /><br />In the end Genesis 22 is fodder for a lot of contemplation about God and humanity.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-49479347935063028132011-06-24T07:50:24.386-04:002011-06-24T07:50:24.386-04:00Isn't this story really about faithfulness? W...Isn't this story really about faithfulness? When God calls for the sacrifice of Isaac, isn't God saying: do you love me? And when Abraham speaks with Isaac is he not asserting: God loves me enough to find us a way through this. <br /><br />God asks Abraham to do the impossible, and to do so with his eyes open to the reality of the situation. Abraham loves God so much that he will do as God asks, confident that God wil find a way through the awful situation - Abraham is certain that God will provide.<br /><br />This is not an act of blind obedience, but an act of faith-filled reliance on God's loving kindness.<br /><br />On another tack, is this not a metaphor for sending our children off to fight in wars? We knowingly offer up our beloved children on the alter of war, trusting that our coountry is in the right and praying that our country will provide a safe way for them to return home? <br /><br />How tragic when our country betrays our trust and wastes the lives of our children on needlesss and petty adventures.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.com