tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post4218263248359188680..comments2024-03-28T10:26:20.408-04:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: The Unending Debate -- Homosexuality in Suburban American LifeRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-65707112232446388572012-01-14T13:12:19.330-05:002012-01-14T13:12:19.330-05:00Hmmm,...
Are we doing this right?
ps- I'm j...Hmmm,...<br /><br />Are we doing this right? <br /><br />ps- I'm just trying to keep the average at ~50 comments)/this type post<br /><br />Romans 14:1 ESV<br /><br />As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-25324227614080186842012-01-14T13:08:26.742-05:002012-01-14T13:08:26.742-05:00"There is no place for judgment in worshipful..."There is no place for judgment in worshipful living."<br /><br />This is key and should have been drilled into us at an early age.<br /><br />Luke 6:37<br /><br />“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; <br /><br />1 Timothy 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.<br /><br />Matthew 15:11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”<br /><br />Too many to post. Please review-<br /><br />http://www.openbible.info/topics/judging_othersDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-78598158748080259162012-01-14T08:03:22.307-05:002012-01-14T08:03:22.307-05:00Gary,
Can we agree that worship of God is through...Gary,<br /><br />Can we agree that worship of God is through living a life of faith, hope, and love? <br /><br />I understand that acts of judgment impede our effort to live out these three. When we have judged another we no longer have faith in God that God will be able to negotiate a worthy relationship with the one we have judged - whether because we don't think they deserve such a relationship or because we think they are irretrievably lost, all because we have judged their conduct, acts or omissions, to fall outside of what we know to be Christian.<br /><br />But the fact of the matter is that while we anticipate that a faith-filled life will conform to modes of conduct which we have been taught are "Christian," in truth a faith-filled life is at its core a life lived in communion with God. And that communion is lived out and experienced in the heart and soul of the other and not necessarily in our relationship with them or in the external manifestations of their life and lifestyle.<br /><br />When we have judged another we have also given up hope that God can no longer, or that God will no longer! try to bridge the gap and come into the life of the one we have judged - we have given up on God. We have concluded that God has abandoned the other.<br /><br />And when we have judged another, we stop loving them. Having deemed them no longer worthy of God's love, we are hard pressed to cherish them ourselves. Often, the best we can muster is regret for a lost soul. They have become objects and as such are no longer worthy of our love.<br /><br />Faith dictates that we continue to believe that God will find a way into their hearts (if in fact God is not actively there alreadY - neither God nor the other are accountable to us) even if we never see the fruits of God's work. Hope dictates that we never give up on God, and that we persist in praying that God will bring the wayward home, and we acknowledge that we too are as wayward as the next person. Love compels us to love the other as ambassadors of Christ, in the expectation that Chrits himself, hand in hand with the Holy Spirit will effectively intercede for the other at the most needful and opportune time.<br /><br />There is no place for judgment in worshipful living.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-61327527276279056512012-01-13T20:48:20.966-05:002012-01-13T20:48:20.966-05:00I will gladly accept your prayers for me.I will gladly accept your prayers for me.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-41771781576433349322012-01-13T20:04:27.210-05:002012-01-13T20:04:27.210-05:00John,
Your "confession" is hypocritical...John,<br /><br />Your "confession" is hypocritical, just like your profession of following Jesus. You feel "guilty" for things you have not done, but no guilt for the wrong you have done. And, if that weren't bad enough, you add to your failures by calling good what God calls evil. Woe unto you.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-74376914796012589642012-01-13T19:12:58.055-05:002012-01-13T19:12:58.055-05:00My motive, by the way, is a relatively new-found v...My motive, by the way, is a relatively new-found voice for the oppressed. Being a white Anglo Saxon male with status and a job and some degree of seniority, I have come to appreciate what the unfair advantage which I have received and to perceive what others have not received, and I am coming to terms with my complicity in the status quo and my obligation as a Disciple to pick up the cross of Christ and follow the Master, seeking freedom for the oppressed, provision for the poor, and acceptance for those children of God usually considered unacceptable.<br /><br />Consider that my confession.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-79030758918009634442012-01-13T19:06:32.729-05:002012-01-13T19:06:32.729-05:00None of the above. Much to my surprise, given my ...None of the above. Much to my surprise, given my youthful indiscretions and attitudes, that I can deny each of your suggestions with a very clear conscience. <br /><br />Interesting that you would shift this to an ad hominem attack. Are you projecting?<br /><br />By the way are you really claiming that Jesus condemns adultery and adulterers no matter what the context?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-27606696712062316972012-01-13T18:50:12.465-05:002012-01-13T18:50:12.465-05:00John,
None of the scriptures that I cited were ou...John,<br /><br />None of the scriptures that I cited were out of context. I demonstrated, beyond doubt, that Jesus considers adultery and fornication, which cover all sexual sins in the New Testament, to be immoral. Those who believe the Bible agree with me, and those who don't probably agree with you. According to Jesus, adultery and fornication are always wrong, regardless of the motive of those who partake in it. Jesus even went further than the physical act and said that when you lust after someone, you've already committed sin in your heart.(Matt. 5:28) Very unlikely that someone commits physical adultery or fornication without doing it in their heart. In other words, your theory that you can be an adulterer, fornicator, or homosexual, and still have a pure heart is a lie. Why are you lying? Are you trying to justify your own sin? Or maybe the sin of someone else? You must have some motive for excusing adultery, fornication, and homosexuality. What is your motive?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-10291531844033195122012-01-13T16:10:03.029-05:002012-01-13T16:10:03.029-05:00Your question was: "What does the 'Jesus&...Your question was: "What does the 'Jesus' you worship think of those who participate in vile affections?"<br /><br />You cited several text out of context for the inference that Jesus agreed with you. I then put them back in context showing that in context your inference was directly contradicted by Jesus actual teach. You now say bluntly that the bible says its wrong and that's your bottom line.<br /><br />And so it is. <br /><br />However, you utterly failed to prove your point (there are no passages from the Gospels evidencing that homosexuality was a particularly relevant issue for Jesus). You also ignored the truth that the inferences you drew in support your anti-homosexual crusade are in point of fact contrary to the teachings which Jesus was offering in those very passages.<br /><br />Someday you are just going to have to acknowledge that this is your issue and not God's. God is concerned with matters of the heart.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-551043168936222002012-01-13T15:31:36.763-05:002012-01-13T15:31:36.763-05:00I'm not a farmer, so no temptation.
City Laws...I'm not a farmer, so no temptation.<br /><br />City Laws in Michigan<br /><br />Clawson<br />There is a law that makes it legal for a farmer to sleep with his pigs, cows, horses, goats, and chickens.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-58848245335178799502012-01-13T13:43:29.737-05:002012-01-13T13:43:29.737-05:00In Matthew 15, Jesus said that adulteries and forn...In Matthew 15, Jesus said that adulteries and fornications come out of the heart (verse 19), and "defile"(v.20). It seems clear that given this, and given what else we read about marriage and sexual relations, not only in the Gospels, but throughout the New Testament, which we have not discussed, that there is no doubt that God condemns ALL sex outside of marriage. In other words, God allows moral sex only within marriage, and marriage can only be between a man and a woman.<br /><br />Adultery, fornication, incest, homosexuality, and any other form extramarital sex, are forbidden by God. Limiting moral sex to marriage is very narrow, and very restricting, but that is what God requires.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-90915410911373142312012-01-13T13:22:19.748-05:002012-01-13T13:22:19.748-05:00Only God knows what in people's hearts. I am ...Only God knows what in people's hearts. I am not going to try to imagine other peoples motives. But I can point to the idea of multiple wives, as well as the notion of Leverite marriage as instances where Scripture gets a little elastic in its provisions regarding sex. Would this notion condone sex with someone other than your spouse for the sake of surrogate child bearing? I am not advocating these practices, just observing that Scripture is not closed to the idea. Is it fair to say that fornication happens in the heart?<br /><br />Again the issue is what is the loving thing to do in a particular circumstance. And if one's motives flow from genuine, God-inspired love, then who am I to judge against the quality of their intentions?<br /><br />(By the way my word verification is "schame".)Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-43589609955507146992012-01-13T11:35:54.909-05:002012-01-13T11:35:54.909-05:00John,
If I understand you correctly, you are sayi...John,<br /><br />If I understand you correctly, you are saying that sex with someone other than your wife, if you are a man, can be acceptable to God, if your motives are pure. Is that what you meant to say?<br /><br />Can you give an example of a pure heart motive when having sex with your neigbor's wife? Or how about a pure motive in having sex with another man? Or, what would constitute a pure motive if your wife decided to leave you to go live with a woman?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-49371410887940485072012-01-13T10:51:47.479-05:002012-01-13T10:51:47.479-05:00Gary,
It is interesting that you point to Mark 10...Gary,<br /><br />It is interesting that you point to Mark 10 as support for your anti-homosexual crusade, because in that passage Jesus was not speaking to homosexuality or even marriage per se, but to divorce, saying that for God's purposes divorce was a sin, a sin which some people have no choice but to commit, but clearly a sin. Why do you not crusade against dicorce, or pronounce judgment on all those who have been divorced? Surely this teaching by Jesus is more clear and straightforward than any inference you may want to draw regarding homosexuality, and this commandment is not only violated by far more people, but is actually regulated by the state! Where is your indignation!<br /><br />The teaching of Mark 10 is instructive on another level. Jesus begins by saying that marriage is instituted by God, but divorce was allowed by Moses in response to human hard heartedness (oppression). This suggest to me the truth that even though God wills that we observe a general rule, God permits us to set aside a general rule when compliance would cause misery and an otherwise oppressive result.<br /><br />The teaching of Matt 10 is not all that helpful for your crusade.<br /><br />It is also interesting that you would rely on Matt 15 for support. In that passage Jesus challenges the Pharisees reliance on clear Scriptural Law regarding purity and holiness, and asserts that compliance with such rules is less important than the intentions of the heart. In fact if the intentions of the heart are righteous, then those intentions trump Scriptural mandates.<br /><br />To me Jesus is saying the actual culpable fornication and adultery are actions of the heart and not the body. See also Matt 5:28. This is consistent with his conversation with the woman caught in the act of adultery. The only way Jesus could release the woman without condemnation is if her indisputably contemnable actions were overcome by a righteousness of heart, which re-cast her conduct in a whole new and acceptable light for God. While one's actions have consequences, the most important consequences are how they are perceived by God, and this perception turns on qualities of the heart, and thus righteousness of purpose is the controlling factor for God in judging sin. And we are told what is the most important and righteous quality of the heart: that we should speak and act out of love for one another.<br /><br />By the way, only God can judge the intentions of the heart.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-980023735855916342012-01-13T07:29:09.430-05:002012-01-13T07:29:09.430-05:00John,
In Mark chapter 10 Jesus endorsed marriage ...John,<br /><br />In Mark chapter 10 Jesus endorsed marriage between a man and a woman. That is relevant to the discussion of homosexuality because it shows that Jesus did not think two men, or two women could rightfully marry. <br /><br />In Matthew 15:19,20 Jesus declared adultery and fornication to be immoral. Every sexual sin is covered under either adultery, or fornication, including homosexuality. Since Jesus didn't recognize "same-sex marriage" as being legitimate, and since he said that all sex outside of marriage is immoral, he destroyed the idea that homosexuality can ever be moral. And there goes your theory that he doesn't care whether one is heterosexual or homosexual.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-1327627711267084182012-01-12T22:50:00.546-05:002012-01-12T22:50:00.546-05:00"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word ..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known."<br /><br />So yes, Jesus was the incarnation of God in the world.<br /><br />However, Jesus was fully human while he was alive, because he had emptied himself of his divinity, and thus what the father knew (knows) Jesus did not necessarily know, and whatever the father in the fullness of his divinity may have been concerned with, Jesus only addressed those issues which were relevant to his incarnational ministry, which I infer to have been of paramount importance, over and above the range of issues raised in the Hebrew Scriptures.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-27579153069785285522012-01-12T22:13:31.316-05:002012-01-12T22:13:31.316-05:00John,
I would like to clarify one thing before I ...John,<br /><br />I would like to clarify one thing before I continue: Is Jesus God, or not? Please give your answer to that question.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-91229003371261342502012-01-12T21:59:25.630-05:002012-01-12T21:59:25.630-05:00Didn't mean to ignore you just preoccupied.
T...Didn't mean to ignore you just preoccupied.<br /><br />The problem with your request is that you have it backwards, since Jesus makes no specific reference to homosexuality, it would appear to be a non-issue for him. It is therefore your burden to show that it was an issue for him.<br /><br />Now in responding, it's no help to refer to Jesus' statement in Matt 10 about being created male and female, etc. because the statement has nothing to do with homosexuality. In fact, you have to get past the language in Matt 19 where Jesus actually attacks the institution of marriage and speaks positively on behalf of eunuchs.<br /><br />So again the burden is on you to prove a concern on Jesus part where Jesus was silent.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-25780696190775189132012-01-12T20:53:41.359-05:002012-01-12T20:53:41.359-05:00David,
No, I know they don't.
And I put the...David, <br /><br />No, I know they don't.<br /><br />And I put the same question to you that I put to John.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-85776619166177752802012-01-12T17:58:43.063-05:002012-01-12T17:58:43.063-05:00"as far as Jesus is concerned, whether one is..."as far as Jesus is concerned, whether one is a homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant."<br /><br />You don't suspect they get "extra credit" for living a life of fear and putting up with hateful/ evil and/or ignorant people?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496392728357471483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-25057617724640177782012-01-12T12:06:38.386-05:002012-01-12T12:06:38.386-05:00"as far as Jesus is concerned, whether one is..."as far as Jesus is concerned, whether one is a homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant."<br /><br />If you can provide them, I would like to see some Scripture references that confirm your statement.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-53283673205710021272012-01-12T10:27:55.168-05:002012-01-12T10:27:55.168-05:00Just a comment here -- I think it's interestin...Just a comment here -- I think it's interesting how a posting about how a mayor speaks of gays leads us to a debate about how we understand Jesus.<br /><br />If we look closely at our conversation we discover that we tend to formulate understandings of Jesus that resonate with our own understandings. I think that Gary and John can find support for their very different understandings of Jesus. <br /><br />So, perhaps that is another conversation -- how do we perceive Jesus? What is he to us? John and Gary have two very different answers to that question.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-41465618327296071682012-01-12T10:07:52.457-05:002012-01-12T10:07:52.457-05:00And here I thought I was quoting what he had to sa...And here I thought I was quoting what he had to say to someone caught in the act of a "vile affection" for whose conduct Scripture absolutely compels execution.<br /><br />So that was a different, unBiblical Jesus? <br /><br />Is this image of Jesus not brutal enough for you?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-49121624788833092002012-01-12T09:22:14.884-05:002012-01-12T09:22:14.884-05:00John,
Yeah, that's what I thought. Do you un...John,<br /><br />Yeah, that's what I thought. Do you understand that the "Jesus" you believe in is not the Jesus of the Bible?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08574147787996161877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-45747107888224062342012-01-12T08:16:56.652-05:002012-01-12T08:16:56.652-05:00I think he is well aware of who we are, and whose ...I think he is well aware of who we are, and whose we are. I think that his love for us is the paramount aspect of his relationship with us. I think that he abhors abuse of others and especially the use of faith and faith-related weapons as instruments of abuse and/or control. I think that his principal concern was whether we love God and one another and that our lives live out and visibly manifest that love. I think that Jesus considers anger at another, abuse behavior and even insulting language as abhorrent as the crime of murder.<br /><br />I am saying that as far as Jesus is concerned, whether one is a homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant. Jesus was concerned with whether we treat each other as cherished children of God, cherished by Jesus and cherished by his followers. When our behavior fails to communicate such love for each other, fails to live out that single commandment, when our faith leads to anything other than a feeling of love for the 'other', and the communication of anything other than such love, that is sin.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.com