tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post4969986570246893329..comments2024-03-28T10:26:20.408-04:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: Breaking Up with God -- ReviewRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-66479176237297375712011-07-20T19:58:58.294-04:002011-07-20T19:58:58.294-04:00As A.W. Tozer so eloquently said years ago in Know...As A.W. Tozer so eloquently said years ago in Knowledge of the Holy, so many problems start with a plain wrong view of who God is. I will quote him liberally here. First, he posed the hypothetical, <br /><br />"Were we able to extract from any man a COMPLETE answer to the question, “What comes into your mind when you think about God?” we might predict with certainty the spiritual future of that man." (emphasis added)<br /><br />The author clearly has an immature, incomplete view of the God of the Bible - and each view she throws out is incomplete, focusing on one or a few attributes of God and ignoring the others. It is quite frankly not surprising then that she took a disastrous detour in her "spiritual future".<br /><br />So first bottom line is: Our view of God matters, and is of primary importance, as we seek the truth. Some views of God are inferior to others. Were this not the case, God would not have taken the effort to reveal who He is to us.<br /><br />As God Himself says in scripture - "I am". Created beings simply do not have the option of creating their own view of the Creator based on their own preferences - the Smorgasbord approach to theology. <br /><br />Not only does this demanding that God fit into one's own box the ultimate in human arrogance, but it is also a textbook example of idolatry. "The idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true."<br /><br />Self reflection is vital. None of this is to discourage self reflection, but we must ask what this process should look like. "Only after an ordeal of painful self-probing are we likely to discover what we actually believe about God." The aim of self reflection should be to ask questions to gauge whether what is in our hearts is in line with what God has revealed about Himself - whether we have the most complete view of the truth.<br /><br />If our previously inadequate view of God blows up in our faces in this process, the appropriate response is to renew our efforts to figure out exactly who God is - not surrender all efforts and accept anyone's view as valid, as a response to our own struggles. <br /><br />Just because I don't have it all figured out, does not mean that I cannot say that you clearly don't have it figured out. I may be struggling to find my way at the moment, but I can tell you that your map is wrong. I will then spend my efforts on finding the right map, and not on drafting a version of what I think the map should look like. These are two very different things, but we often view them as one and the same, lazily calling it "seeking".<br /><br />This is not at all an easy process, and we must all go through it, but truth will only be found if one seeks to sacrifice self to relate to the living God, as opposed to "seeking" a God who fits into our carefully contructed view of who we want Him to be.Jessica Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676929520611367219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-13635875133609534182011-07-20T19:47:07.406-04:002011-07-20T19:47:07.406-04:00As A.W. Tozer so eloquently said years ago in Know...As A.W. Tozer so eloquently said years ago in Knowledge of the Holy, so many problems start with a plain wrong view of who God is. I will quote him liberally here. First, he posed the hypothetical, <br /><br />"Were we able to extract from any man a COMPLETE answer to the question, “What comes into your mind when you think about God?” we might predict with certainty the spiritual future of that man." (emphasis added)<br /><br />The author clearly has an immature, incomplete view of the God of the Bible - and each view she throws out is incomplete, focusing on one or a few attributes of God and ignoring the others. It is quite frankly not surprising then that she took a disastrous detour in her "spiritual future".<br /><br />As God Himself says in scripture - "I am". Created beings simply do not have the option of creating their own view of the Creator based on their own preferences - the Smorgasbord approach to theology. <br /><br />Not only does this demanding that God fit into one's own box the ultimate in human arrogance, but it is also a textbook example of idolatry. "The idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true."<br /><br />Self reflection is vital. "Only after an ordeal of painful self-probing are we likely to discover what we actually believe about God." But the aim of self reflection is to ask questions to gauge whether what is in our hearts is in line with what God has revealed about Himself. If our previously inadequate view of God blows up in our faces in this process, the appropriate response is to renew our efforts to figure out exactly who God is - not surrender all efforts and accept anyone's view as valid.<br /><br />This is not at all an easy process, and we must all go through it, but truth will only be found if one seeks to sacrifice self to relate to the living God, as opposed to "seeking" a God who fits into our carefully contructed view of who we want Him to be.Jessica Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06676929520611367219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-10979655586136107552011-06-10T09:09:25.364-04:002011-06-10T09:09:25.364-04:00Hmm it does sound a bit sad. But then so does Kare...Hmm it does sound a bit sad. But then so does Karen Armstrong to me.Seals Island Theologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03434595303120173548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-35563205204501939532011-06-07T21:06:04.287-04:002011-06-07T21:06:04.287-04:00John, this is true. I'm gauging it on the bas...John, this is true. I'm gauging it on the basis of what I read, and except for an eating disorder as a teen, she lived a pretty normal life. Reading a couple of reviews of the previous book apparently she describes rather bitterly her experience of entering the priesthood. In this book she goes to seminary without any real sense of wanting to be a priest and seems to resent having to serve a congregation. But again, I can only speak from what I read not from knowing her.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-30863890969931704762011-06-07T20:57:55.733-04:002011-06-07T20:57:55.733-04:00I think it is difficult to gauge how much she has ...I think it is difficult to gauge how much she has endured without gauging how profoundly she engaged that which she has endured, emotionally and intellectually.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-50716639525395505112011-06-07T18:27:36.399-04:002011-06-07T18:27:36.399-04:00John, thanks for the critique. I'm not sure I...John, thanks for the critique. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up my critique of what I perceive to be her whining -- that said, I do think she is right in challenging our tendency to project on to God that which is good about humanity so as to absolve ourselves of responsibility. I just think that her "memoir" would have more credibility if she'd faced greater odds than she describes in the book. I know a lot of women who have faced greater odds than has she.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-51813104939077103532011-06-07T16:31:50.995-04:002011-06-07T16:31:50.995-04:00I find your accusation of whininess to be uncharac...I find your accusation of whininess to be uncharacteristically uncharitable.<br /><br />Admittedly we are both 50 something white males and have very different images of God, and what we seek from God. But that does not render our perspective any more or less correct, or any more or less laudable.<br /><br />Sentilles' perspective is, I think, a common one for alietnated Christian women, and I think one against which feminists and many other thinking women have to work hard to overcome: God is not a knight in shining armor.<br /><br />But God is not a king or a father either. I have to overcome the paradigms I was raised up with, and I think all of us have to journey from the image of God as imaginary hero, to the God which defies all image-making.<br /><br />And, having listened to Sentilles Youtube.com speak on her last book, I see that she is struggling mightily not only against the internalized paradigm but the paradigms which the Church promotes, paradigms which across the board and across the millennia have conspired to diminish women and render them compliant to a male dominant culture. To suggest that "she seems to have a rather poor sense of herself" is to deny the value of her ongoing struggle, as well as the immensity of it. To suggest that she just "get over it" fails to appreciate the difficulty of merely grasping the issue let alone overcoming it. <br /><br />By the way, Sentilles' conceptualization of her relationship with God as 'dis-engagement' is suggestive of the biblical narrative of Hosea and the seductive poetry of the Song of Solomon, seems to me a fair and proper literary device for a prophet.<br /><br />And what do we know about prophets?<br /><br />They whine.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-42116183425274257642011-06-07T08:37:58.180-04:002011-06-07T08:37:58.180-04:00Jody, thanks for your reflectons.
Brian, I hope I...Jody, thanks for your reflectons.<br /><br />Brian, I hope I don't come across as anti-self-reflection. In my reading of the book, I can't say that there is much here that speaks of suffering, but of a poor self-image. She complains regularly that she's unlovable. As one who struggled with a poor self-image through adolescence and having seen folks truly suffer, she comes off whiny.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-41125170501184813162011-06-07T06:50:34.527-04:002011-06-07T06:50:34.527-04:00Clarification: The founder of CPE compared the stu...Clarification: The founder of CPE compared the study of "living human documents" to the study of literature. He found that most ministry training was literature oriented instead of human oriented. The results are easy to predict.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396901667077846319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-1848092724022650212011-06-07T06:48:23.671-04:002011-06-07T06:48:23.671-04:00What if her whininess is suffering? In the course...What if her whininess is suffering? In the course of reading your posts I've seen a bias against self-reflection. It comes through in your critique of mourning. <br /><br />The founder of CPE called humans "living human documents" meaning that we learn at least as much about theology, ourselves, and the world by exegeting a human being's feelings and experiences. <br /><br />This is important because I think pastors can hurt good people by labeling courageous self-reflection as self-absorption. I was thinking of you as I was driving to my therapy session yesterday.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396901667077846319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-7181408733839293072011-06-06T23:34:29.798-04:002011-06-06T23:34:29.798-04:00As a former Catholic, I sympathize with the author...As a former Catholic, I sympathize with the author. I, too, grew up with a romanticized view of what it meant to be the Bride of Christ. The sisters who taught me in school wore wedding rings! I left the church because no one would answer my questions like: Why can't I read the Bible for myself? How can the Pope tell me about birth control & where does it say "no" to birth control in the Bible? It took me 20 years of trying it on my own(& not working!) to choose Jesus, pick up a Bible, get plugged into a study group, and allow GOD to tell me the truth about Himself. I hope this author will give God a chance, too.Jodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00409779974918691992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-86576666856967063492011-06-06T11:38:32.897-04:002011-06-06T11:38:32.897-04:00Thank you so much for the very thorough and though...Thank you so much for the very thorough and thoughtful review of Breaking Up With God. We really appreciate it! Thanks for being on the tour.LisaMMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530087423961700607noreply@blogger.com