tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post8318439352228618698..comments2024-03-28T10:26:20.408-04:00Comments on Ponderings on a Faith Journey: Anabaptists, Suffering and DiscipleshipRobert Cornwallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-3543339937742437642011-09-21T10:42:27.068-04:002011-09-21T10:42:27.068-04:00Brian
I don't know who Bradley Manning is but...Brian<br /><br />I don't know who Bradley Manning is but I am concerned when you say:<br /><br /><i>The suffering as essential approach will inevitably lead to psychologically abusive homes and communities.</i><br /><br />That is an very broad blanket statement. Jesus never beat around the bush, in this world we will have trouble. The world will hate us because it first hated Him. If we are truly following Christ the world will persecute us. That persecution may take different forms and in fact much of the persecution will come from the religious among us, even some who claim the name of Christ, but to suggest that the results of following Christ as He described leads inevitably to psychologically abusive homes and communities is dangerous ground indeed.Arthur Sidohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03848508095612688493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-38495543434527014872011-09-18T07:55:28.111-04:002011-09-18T07:55:28.111-04:00Nobody is claiming they practiced intentional self...Nobody is claiming they practiced intentional self-induced suffering. The anabaptist tradition is well-known and honorable. I simply think that with what we know of family systems, group psychology, and mental illness these days that we need to be very careful in how we present these ideas. The old terms have different understandings to people not well-versed in christian history and symbolic language. <br /><br />An example is when Arthur states, "...following the way of the cross will inevitably lead to suffering and persecution". Metaphorically, most Christians agree. In practice, what does this mean? What does it look like? Specifically, who is practicing it? The only one I can name who is actually doing this in an observable way is Bradley Manning.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396901667077846319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-48684097346830702952011-09-17T23:15:25.249-04:002011-09-17T23:15:25.249-04:00I read a little more on the Anabaptists and I see ...I read a little more on the Anabaptists and I see that they did not espouse self-induced suffering, though they did assert the value of suffering - something which I can accept in certain circumstances as being "of the kingdom".Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-82354092041505746302011-09-17T16:46:37.335-04:002011-09-17T16:46:37.335-04:00Arthur,
Yes, you have caught the proper sense of...Arthur, <br /><br />Yes, you have caught the proper sense of gelassenheit! The anabaptists didn't go seeking persecution, but like the early Christians, their embrace of the gospel led to their being persecuted. They took to heart the blessing of the Beatitudes, so that blessed are the persecuted, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. <br /><br />The anabaptists sought to follow the gospel in its fulness. Their more radical version of the reformation was met with strong and violent response from both Catholic and Non-Catholic forces.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-69535542255545731452011-09-17T10:30:34.467-04:002011-09-17T10:30:34.467-04:00It seems that the two prior comments are missing t...It seems that the two prior comments are missing the point of <i>Gelassenheit</i>. This is not a self-induced flagellation but a realization that following the way of the cross will inevitably lead to suffering and persecution. I am far more concerned with those who try to claim to name of Christ while being perfectly comfortable with the world, pursuing riches and security rather than lives of radical sacrifice and discipleship.<br /><br />For further reading check out the Global Anabaptist-Mennonite Encyclopedia definition: http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/G448.htmlArthur Sidohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03848508095612688493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-20485018282673473452011-09-17T09:30:14.053-04:002011-09-17T09:30:14.053-04:00I agree with John. We should learn from them and h...I agree with John. We should learn from them and honor them, but honoring means correcting past abuses. The suffering as essential approach will inevitably lead to psychologically abusive homes and communities. Factor in elements such as bipolar disorder and you have the mix for a path of death, not life. <br /><br />We can learn from their spirit and courage, but I don't think we should emulate them without serious modifications. Of course, this goes for all traditions of the past, including scripture (example: divorce).Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396901667077846319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22980286.post-30658785340775919492011-09-17T08:08:24.042-04:002011-09-17T08:08:24.042-04:00What strikes a discordant note for me is that they...What strikes a discordant note for me is that they engaged in self-induced suffering and that their practices were undertaken with the intention of gaining eternal life rather than simply because holiness is what we are called to.<br /><br />Self-induced suffering is at best delusional and at worst sado-masochistic. There is enough suffering in the world, the role of the follower of Christ should be to address the suffering that is already present in the world, preferably the suffering of others, by seeking to ameliorate suffering, or at least take on some of the burden of others. But there is no holiness in introducing more pain and suffering into the world even if you are doing it to purchase your way into God's heart. <br /><br />As for suffering to increase your chances of gaining eternal life - is this not a matter of God's will? Do we not trust the love of God to do with us as promised? Do we think we can manipulate God into granting us a blessed eternity when God was otherwise inclined? Do we think God will cherish us more if we brutalize the bodies which God gave as temples for the Holy Spirit and teach others to do the same? Is God that gullible, does God not know us for who we are and yet loves us anyway?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245470576919732592noreply@blogger.com