Judgment, Salvation, and Behavior
Years ago, when teaching a doctrine class at a Christian college, I raised the issues of universalism, judgment, and salvation. These were mostly 20 year old kids. Their response to the possibility of universalism was similar to a couple of responses to my previous posting on salvation.
The question is: If there is no hell or no final punishment, why behave? Why do what is right if there is no penalty for doing wrong? It's a good question, but in my mind a wrongheaded one, for this reason, why must doing good require a negative incentive?
I do believe in judgment. I believe in God's refining fire -- in that, that which is good survives and that which is not good is burnt away. What's important to note is that in the refining process, not everything is destroyed. In my mind the same is true for us. There is in each of us, something that is good, something that reflects God's image. No, I don't believe in total depravity. I do know that there are texts that may suggest such a view, but in most cases those are cries for help, cries of despair. And in response comes a comforting word from God.
So, my question is: must there be hell for there to be heaven?
The question is: If there is no hell or no final punishment, why behave? Why do what is right if there is no penalty for doing wrong? It's a good question, but in my mind a wrongheaded one, for this reason, why must doing good require a negative incentive?
I do believe in judgment. I believe in God's refining fire -- in that, that which is good survives and that which is not good is burnt away. What's important to note is that in the refining process, not everything is destroyed. In my mind the same is true for us. There is in each of us, something that is good, something that reflects God's image. No, I don't believe in total depravity. I do know that there are texts that may suggest such a view, but in most cases those are cries for help, cries of despair. And in response comes a comforting word from God.
So, my question is: must there be hell for there to be heaven?
Comments
The builder will be saved, refined of that which is not worthy.
John
Your theology is not Biblical, and therefore, not of God. It is YOUR theology, something you make up as you go along.
We are all prodigal children and sooner or later we will all have the opportunity to be received in the arms of a loving Father. Let us not be deceived into thinking we are the elder brothers, resenting God for graces given to others.
John
It's no big deal, but I'm curious why that is. Indeed, it's not the first time that this has happened. Why, is it necessary, for those who want to hold to a very literal understanding of the Bible often find it necessary to speak to those they disagree in what would appear to be a disrespectful way? Is that speaking the truth in love?
What I'm trying to do here is ask some questions for discussion, questions about who we are and what we believe. I understand the exclusive perspective. I've held it. But the more I understand about God and who God is, the less able I am to hold to such a view. But more on that later.
I actually find this question -- and this response to univeralism -- a little sobering. Because if I reverse this, I end up asking is this the only reason a Christian is kind or compassionate or loving? Because of the threat of hellfire?
If this is the case, then how much merit does such behavior have? How geniune can it be if it's almost tainted by the threat of punishment?
As for me, I've always understood universalism along the lines as it's described in this post. It's not about doing whatever you want, and then still "getting to heaven." There are consequences to wrong behavior, and there will be repentence and redemption of everyone. But the point of the consequences is a learning experience, in order to better the person.
I really appreciate your approach to the question.
If we spend our whole lives doing good or avoiding bad simply because "God said so", then we likely will have a horrible understanding of good and evil. As adults, we learn to discern good and bad based on an whole set of experiences and vast array of knowledge about expected results.
Personally, I don't believe in any form of literal afterlife. I see those as religious versions of "don't touch the hot stove" or "You can have desert if you finish your vegetables". Well meaning, but not particularly helpful for 21st century adults. In either case, as our faith progresses, we need to move to reasonable logic for why we behave responsibly and valid results oriented reasoning for why we should follow Christ. We need to know how heat works and how vegetables effect our bodies. Fear and manipulation are not going to cut it for most adults. I actually think we can make a reasonable case for following Christ's message of a non-violent protest of injustice and logical arguments for loving our neighbors and sharing our wealth.
I'm still fond of a good story, so I don't mind the more mythical attempts at persuasion either. They can still be persuasive at times. Churches should be willing to talk about the more reasonable natural arguments, while secular society might consider the narrative mythical approach more often too.
You said: "Fear and manipulation are not going to cut it for most adults."
I think you overestimate the ability of American adults to resist fear and manipulation. It is true that many will resist, but I don't think you can categorically assert that "most" will resist.
In fact I think that John McCain, Sarah Palin, and the entire McCain campaign disagree completely with you - they are banking on you being wrong.
Think about that: John McCain is banking on the hope that the adult population of the United States will give in to fear and manipulation!
And I am convinced that the source of that strategy comes out of the Christian Right, straight from the pulpit and the pulpit masters who lead those churches. Those Conservative Christian leaders have led their congregations into a position of dominance in the Republican Party.
They preach a message of fear and retribution, a message of exclusivism and exclusion. And in the political arena they argue with great passion that while a vote for the wrong candidate may or may not be a sin, it surely will lead to the most dire of consequences, and God will no longer protect and preserve the Nation. In fact, it is argued that a vote for the wrong person will not only contribute to the continuing erosion of the all that America stands for, but enough such votes will in all likelihood put Satan himself into the White House, and herald the end of times. (I will show you the emails forwarded from a Conservative Christian friend quoting Revelation 13 at length and arguing that Obama is indeed the beast.
There is no reason to assume that fear and manipulation will fail.
John
I mostly agree, but the number of those people who are influenced strictly by fear and manipulation is dropping. In most situations, as a particular view becomes marginalized, it gets louder as it dies out. I think that is exactly what we are seeing with the political far right. In that case (and with religious literalism on the right) the louder they get the more absurd it looks. Sarah Palin may seem to garner lots of vocal support on the far right, but she's harming the brand and sending droves of people to the center.