What does it mean to be a Christian?
America remains a relatively religious nation, though it is becoming increasingly non-institutional and pluralistic. Christians are seen as narrow and judgmental, concerned only about themselves. So, what does it mean to be a Christian?
In a YouTube video featuring snippets from Brian McLaren and Tony Campolo, an answer is attempted. I think you'll find this poignant and helpful.
In a YouTube video featuring snippets from Brian McLaren and Tony Campolo, an answer is attempted. I think you'll find this poignant and helpful.
Thanks to Emergent Village for posting it.
Comments
The point of the piece is that in order to undo the damage done to the image of Christianity by the hypocritical Christian Right we must reclaim the core agenda of Jesus:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
The hypocrisy of the Christian Right in its message of hostility, prosperity, and exclusion has become the dominant portrait of Christianity among those outside of the Church. The point of the piece is that in order to proclaim the GOOD NEWS we must actively, intentionally, and publicly begin to deliver the Good News in the manner and to the people Jesus intended - to the marginalized and excluded.
In the doing, hopefully we who deliver the message will be ever more fully converted to the mind of Christ.
John
And what do you mean by "more fully converted to the mind of Christ"? Do you mean that is how someone becomes a Christian? And what about non-Christians who give to the poor? Do they gain any favor with a God they might not even believe in?
I want to respond to your questions but it will take time. I sense in your response the same criticism I often direct at Christians who use all the jargon and never get tot he substance of the message - so I will try to refrain from the jargon.
To your last point first. According to mainline Protestant Christian teaching good deeds done for any reason do not buy favor with God - favor comes to all as a matter of grace.
Good deeds are done by Christians either in obedience, in gratitude, or in an intentional effort to effectuate the will of God. I would think that when one is acting from these compulsions one has been converted to the "mind of Christ" because they are imitating Christ, and they are doing so not for reward, but from a heartfelt compulsion that I believe is the work of the Holy Spirit on the soul of the individual.
Non Christians who do good deeds when acting from a moral compulsion are still doing good deeds and deserve praise and respect for what they do. Perhaps this too is the secret working of the Holy Spirit - but non Christians are welcomed to claim personal responsibility for their own actions - especially the good ones.
I will respond to your first paragraph in a later post.
John
The "mind of Christ" as I interpret it is dedicated to engagement with and among people, and the engagement/relationship is based on heartfelt love and compassion and a desire for the emotional and spiritual well being of each other. To that end Jesus is seen throughout the Gospel teaching these qualities, and otherwise personally engaged in a ministry of healing and fellowship.
The target of Jesus teaching is often those who belong, who have power and wealth, substance and means. I have always thought of these as the blind to whom Jesus brings sight - so that they can see the social, economic and spiritual poverty in which they and those around them live.
The target of his healing and fellowship ministries are typically those who have neither health, wealth, skills, or any sort of voice in the community - the social, economic, religious, and political outcasts. These kinds of people are the oppressed, marginalized and excluded.
The Good News is the teaching of Jesus - that He has come and will come again, that in the meantime his followers will do their best to continue His ministries of teaching, healing, and fellowship until that day when He comes again.
The Good News is also presented in the fact that with Jesus resurrection He has ushered in a new age of relationship with the God, an age where we the people trust in God's favor not because we comply with all the religious rules and regulations, but because God loves us, and as Children of God we will receive God's Grace. This is not to say that we will be made rich and healthy or that all will go well for us, but that we have the opportunity to have a personal relationship with our creator, a personal relationship where honesty and loving kindness prevail, especially when all else seems to be falling apart - God will be with us, all the days of our lives. Jesus likens God to our Father, who wraps us in His loving arms and communicates His warmth and spiritual protection, even in the face of violence, horror, and tragedy. God hears and God is with us.
John
John
John
That was a pretty vague answer, but I think I understand some of it. You think God wants everyone to love and help each other because God loves everyone and wants to help everyone.
What about sin? Damnation? Hell? Does God's grace solve those problems for everyone, or just for some? And if for only some, then who?
You said: What about sin? Damnation? Hell? Does God's grace solve those problems for everyone, or just for some? And if for only some, then who?
This is where my theology may depart from others. What follows is obviously a gross oversimplification. My theology starts with the premise that God desires and works for the salvation of all, and not just some, and that God never gives up, even after we leave this world.
My understanding is that sin is a turning away from God. Hell is an eternity spent away from God. Damnation is the decision to turn away from God for an eternity. Who would do that? I don't know if anyone, armed with the certain knowledge of the truth, would willingly make such a choice, but it is a possibility I suppose.
Other Christians would argue that sin is disobedience (rule breaking) and that damnation is a penalty that God imposes on those who break the rules in the most heinous way. Other violations, being minor are forgiven. They argue that we are saved not by our deeds but through Grace alone. According to their logic, though we are damned by our deeds. I can't agree.
For my part I don't know how to determine which rules are more important than others and which violations are minor and which major. For my part, to threaten damnation for rule breaking is no different that saying "if you do all the right things you can work your way into Heaven" (Heaven = God's presence).
In the end all is up to God and the blessing we receive we receive not because we earn them but because God loves the children of God.
We are all sinners, all afraid of what we don't know or can't control, or of what is beyond our ability to comprehend. We act in fear and we injure others. When we choose not to sin we respond to the Spirit which God has planted in our hearts and we set aside our fears and trust that what we are doing is worth the risk we endure. It is easier to take those risks when we have faith that God is with us.
John
It seems that you and John are having a sufficiently good conversation that I'm going to stay largely out of this.
I do want to add a couple of things into the mix. First, what do you make of Matthew 25, where Jesus clearly divides sheep and goats over how they treated the poor. It didn't matter that some called him Lord, if they didn't serve the poor they were sent away.
And as for the good deeds of those who are not believers, what do you make of the Good Samaritan parable. The Samaritan is not a believer -- at least not described as one -- and is one who stands outside the people of God. Yet Jesus raises him up as an exemplar of faithfulness -- because he cares for another.
On a second matter, and that has to do with salvation. You have raised the standard view that we have fallen short of God's standards and that without accepting Jesus -- and his death -- we are subject to damnation. What do you make of the Prodigal Son parable? Would you nake of the father's compassion and grace. There is no penalty to be paid, just open arms.
If a human parent would not cast aside a child, would our heavenly father do less than we?
I'm not certain as to the meaning of the Matthew 25 passage you referenced.
In reading the New Testament, I find that Jesus Christ came to earth to save sinners from damnation by grace, through faith, and not by them doing any kind of good thing. Helping people who need help might be a good thing, but it won't get rid of your sin problem.
Most people will not receive eternal life, but will instead be damned. The Bible teaches that if one dies in their sins, without faith, and without God's gift of eternal life, the result is damnation. Acutally, according to Jesus in John 3:18, if you aren't a believer, you are already condemned. There is no scriptural proof, that I can find, that anyone is given any more opportunities for salvation after death.
Neither is there any Scriptural proof that having another religion will be acceptable to God. God's gift of faith is faith in Christ, not another God. It really is a very narrow way, as Christ said(Matt. 7:14).
Can we admit that both of us are choosing to focus on specific texts of scripture to define our position? You say that you don't know what Matthew 25 has to say to this discussion, but assume that ultimately it doesn't have anything to say to us. Could the narrow way Jesus talks about have to do with what is described in Matthew 25. If you read the Synoptic gospels you won't find Jesus saying -- believe in me and your sins are washed away. He calls on us to follow him. Is Jesus simply a sacrificial victim or is he more?
I never said Matt. 25 has nothing to say to us, but I don't think it means that salvation is a result of feeding the hungry, etc.. Not for us as individuals. And no, I don't believe that is the narrow way that Jesus talks about.
Are the synoptic gospels the only part of the New Testament you use? In the gospel of John, Jesus does talk that way.
Jesus is not a victim. He came to earth to offer himself a sacrifice to God for the sins of those who have faith in him. Of course he is more than just a sacrifice, but he certainly is that.
You said: Most people will not receive eternal life, but will instead be damned.
This is a very chilling theological statement. So if I am part of "most people," as I presume that I am, what am I to do about this God who damns me for eternity? Waste my time, effort, spirit, and emotions in pointless worship? What have I to be thankful for, and, according to this theology, there is no point in praying or anything, but the damnation I am assured of.
Is my compassion toward my fellow creation greater than my Lord's, Is my love of God's creation and of God's creatures greater than God's?
When Jesus says I give you this commandment: Love one another as I have loved you - is Jesus really saying: 'Yes, I love some of you, maybe all, but most of you are not worth saving so, I must admit, to you my love means nothing, you are damned.'
This is a Theology of Hopelessness. Faith for the vast majority of people is pointless, because there is no salvific possibility.
Yes, you can draw scriptural references to support it, but there are many which contradict it - too many to even begin to quote.
But if I am damned according to your theology, there is no harm in my loving the Lord and presuming that He loves me even more. There is no harm in assuming that He has plans for me, plans for good, plans to prosper me. Even though according to your theology the Lord has damned me, I will choose to be thankful for what I have received.
And I will embrace a theology of hope - a theology of life and love.
I look to Revelations 22:1-2, which says that in the New Jerusalem there will be a river flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb, and on the banks of the river will be the Tree of Life, whose leaves are for the healing of the nations. It says 'the nations', not some people from some of the nations. To me when it says 'the nations' I understand that to mean all the nations, and I understand the quote to mean that healing will occur in the New Jerusalem, after we leave this body - healing of mind, body and spirit. God is not done with us when we die, He's only just getting started.
John
Since most people are damned, that includes most of the 'haves' as well as most of the 'have nots', there simply is no logical reason for the damned among the 'haves' to reach out to aid the damned among the 'have nots'.
There is no reason for obedience to God's will and little reason to pay attention to the message of Christianity - it is of little value to most of us anyway - just a harbinger of an unavoidable eternity of damnation. Not Good News but BAD NEWS.
What a troubling theology.
John
If you have Scripture that supports universal salvation, please reference it. I've read the N.T. and I don't find that in there. It may be chilling, but that is what God has said will happen.
God is not obligated to save anyone. Had He chosen to, He could have let everyone be damned. That God chose to have mercy on some, while giving the rest justice, is very consistant with His character. We either get mercy, or we get justice. Either way, God is just, right, and holy.
You said: That God chose to have mercy on some, while giving the rest justice, is very consistant with His character. We either get mercy, or we get justice. Either way, God is just, right, and holy.
All of this theological discussion really shouldn't matter to you, because according to your theology, you, like most of the rest of us have been abandoned by God.
My direct response is that if we are all damned, then justice does not come into play, nor does mercy.
Justice in human terms is receiving what one deserves relative to one's neighbors and the quality of one's efforts when compared against some objective standard. We are taught that nothing positive we can do can save us from damnation. If that is true then our damnation is not caused by what we do or don't do. That cannot be justice.
Mercy is the waiving of the imposition negative justice, usually as an act of compassion. Where most are damned, there is no compassion.
In your theology, grace (mercy understood as relief from damnation) is randomly assigned to a fraction of God's creation. Randomly, because there is nothing anyone can do to earn such grace. There is also nothing anyone can do to avoid damnation - most of us get it, no matter what. God's imposition of damnation has nothing to do with justice and God's imposition of salvation has nothing to do with mercy. It's a lottery.
How you can call that perfect justice I don't know. God may be perfectly just and holy, but if we are mostly damned, then the qualities inherent in God's character are absolutely meaningless in the equation of human salvation. They have no impact on the eternal disposition of our souls and, as they are wholly incomprehensible, whatever they are, there is no way (or reason) to import them into human society.
So too under this theology, Jesus' incarnation becomes of little value and His teachings pointless. If we did everything Jesus told us to do, we achieve nothing because works are meaningless and most of us will continue to be damned. Blind obedience to One who has no compassion for us seems delusional at best. In response to the notion that God loves us for who we really are - I say: So what!
Your theology is more than troubling.
God is the God of all creation - universalist to be sure. God loves all people and shows no partiality - universalist as well.
If God has not chosen to extend salvation to all, then I shall pray ever more fervently that God changes God's mind. If God has not chosen to show mercy and compassion and forgiveness to all creation, then I will pray for that too. And I will continue to live under the hope that God is more loving and more compassionate and more forgiving than I can imagine. I have a big imagination!
I will not pray that I alone am saved, nor will I pray that anyone should receive the negative justice they deserve.
I will pray the News is indeed Good, and that everyone who hears of it is blessed by it, and everyone who cannot hear it, is blessed by the love of their creator anyway.
John
Why do you believe that I have been abandoned by God?
I never said we are all damned.
The objective standard to which we are measured is God's law. Those who die as unbelievers will receive perfect justice from God, and will be punished as they deserve. They will not be treated unfairly.
How do you know that God's grace is random? Are you assuming it is random because you don't understand it? We don't earn grace. Grace is a gift. If it was earned, it would be justice, not grace.
I encourage you to keep praying. And reading the Bible. I have no way of knowing if there is hope for you or not, but I encourage you to ask God to open your eyes to the truth. If He does, then you may have a lot of hope.
I see now. You are one of those whom God will save! No wonder its so easy for you to talk of damnation - you are not at risk.
Congratulations.
John
By the way, how did you avoid God's justice?
On another topic, why do you think Jesus identified himself with the poor and the outcast? Certainly not because they were believers and certainly not because they lived according to God's law. Yet Jesus dedicated himself to them and not to the believers, to the Prodigal and not to the righteous elder brother.
And in the light of this self-identification, what are we to make of John's Gospel where he says that if you want to see the Father look at the Son - the very Son who is to be seen in the face of the poor, the hungry and the outcast?
John
I'm saved from my sins because God had mercy on me. Certainly not because I did anything to deserve it, or earn it.
Jesus dealt with different people, not just the poor. But I would suggest you read I Corinthians 1: 18-31; that might give you some information.
So God had mercy on you and abandoned the rest of us. Not because of your merit or because of our sin, but just because - you know that 'grace' thing.
Or is it as you suggest: "God decided ... to save those who believe"? In which case it wasn't grace that saved you but your decision to believe the right things that saved you. Clever you.
Also, it would seem that because you don't know whether I am saved or not, you obviously think my belief in Jesus may not be as worthy as yours.
It sounds like you are saying that I can merit salvation by believing in Jesus, provided my beliefs are the same as yours, or at least as worthy. Wrong beliefs = damnation! Does my hope for universal salvation constitute a wrong belief, requiring my damnation? If so then too much compassion can be dangerous!
You are a pharisee and a publican!
There is no humility in your presumption. No wonder you resist the notion of helping the poor - you with all your grace can't be bothered and need not be bothered responding to Jesus call to feed the poor. After all, you are saved and in no danger of damnation no matter what you do or don't do.
I wonder: which seat did you get, the one to the right or the left of Jesus?
John
p.s., I can't resist:
So I can be saved by having right beliefs? How many of those right beliefs must I hold? Is there a quota of beliefs which I must hold? What happens to me if I have some right beliefs but not enough? How do I determine what are right beliefs? Is there some kind of test?
If you are right and salvation is universal, then it makes no difference what anyone believes, or doesn't believe, or does, or doesn't do. It matters not whether one is Hindu or Christian, atheist or theist, polytheist or monotheist. It matters not whether one feeds the hungry, or ignores them.
If you really believe that salvation is universal, why are you angry with me about my beliefs? It shouldn't matter to you what I believe. Why does it?
I don't think John is angry with you -- I know John well enough to say that he's not an angry type -- but he does like to push the discussion.
But whether one is a pluralist, an inclusivist, or an exclusivist in one's understanding of salvation, I do think what we believe matters, even if it might not effect one's salvation. What one believes about God could influence the way one acts.
I would say that both Fred Phelps and Osama Bin Laden have views of God that are dangerous. They believe that God is wrathful and that God intends them to be agents of that wrath (though to this point Phelps hasn't bombed anything).
At the same time, belief that God is love and that God embraces and welcomes all people -- for Jesus says we are to love not just friends and neighbors but enemies as well likely influences the way we will act in life.
Jesus talked several times about damnation and condemnation. If salvation is universal, what do you think Jesus meant by damnation and condemnation?
I am not angry, just provoked. I apologize for my intemperance, not because it wasn't warranted, but because it is not my style.
The reason I follow the teachings of Jesus (within my abilities) is as an expression of gratitude and worshipfulness. All that I have, blessings and woes alike, come from a God who saw fit to create me, and who continues to see fit to love me and care for me. Me? (Sometimes I feel like Job hearing God from the whirlwind - here is the mighty creator of the universe, stooping to speak with lowly me? Sometimes in my awe I am rendered speechless - hard to believe.) I cannot help but feel gratitude and my gratitude compels me to seek ways to make God smile, ways to be a blessing to others. I do my best to always be a blessing to others - often I fail, but not for lack of intention.
That your public statements concern me is not so much that you require correction so much as that you embarrass the good name and good will of Christianity.
If you replay the video which led to this dialogue you will see that it begins with a series of people disclaiming belief and indicting Christianity for the hypocrisy, exclusion, and hatefulness of some of its more vocal proponents. Those critics have been led away from the true message of Christianity by the shameful words and misconduct of a few who all too publicly misstate the truths of the teachings of our Lord and otherwise all too publicly fail to live lives worthy of the name Christian. In fact those critics can no longer hear the truth of the Christian faith - and their disillusionment may be permanent.
What Compolo and McLaren are calling for is a return to our Lord's message of service and humility and for a putting aside of claims of presumption and threats of exclusion.
What provoked me was that your tone and your words are costing people their faith, you stand in the way of people who might otherwise return to the arms of our heavenly Father; you are undoing the work of the humble servants among us.
And I am utterly frustrated that you cannot see that while you are interfering with God's work, you have the audacity to boast of your own salvation and counsel me to pray and read my Bible.
When I think about people who say the things you say I think of the words of Jesus from Matthew 23:2-4:
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them."
Your message should be these words of Jesus from Matthew 11::28-30:
"Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
John
I was once very much in the same place that you are in. My interpretation of scripture was influenced by a broader sense of God's nature and my own experience of God's grace. I recognize that you may not find this satisfactory, but this is where I find myself at.
I don't understand your criticism of me. I said that God saved me by His grace and without any merit on my part. How does that make me a pharisee? Could you please tell me what burdens I have put on anyone? How have I interfered with God's work?
I will respond two different ways in separate posts.
You said God saved you because you chose to believe the right things, hence it was your conduct which compelled God to save you. There was no grace involved. That puts you in control of God: if I do this I will make God do that. I highly doubt God can be controlled or compelled to do anything.
I deplore your message of Christian exclusion: One must believe as you believe or else they will join the bulk of humanity in an eternity of damnation. In essence you are saying that God cares only about those who hold correct beliefs.
I cannot accept your heartless dismissal of most of humanity, or your belief that God is even more heartless by the divine decision to damn most of humanity, so many billions of people without regard to the depth of their worshipfulness. God's love is so much greater than that.
I am disappointed in your resistance to 'feeding the poor', and your failure to show in your words any kindness or compassion to those you think are damned. You appear to be saying that they are getting the justice they deserve, while you am getting the grace which secured by your correct beliefs.
John
You said: The objective standard to which we are measured is God's law. Those who die as unbelievers will receive perfect justice from God, and will be punished as they deserve. They will not be treated unfairly.
And you said: God is not obligated to save anyone. Had He chosen to, He could have let everyone be damned. That God chose to have mercy on some, while giving the rest justice, is very consistant with His character. We either get mercy, or we get justice. Either way, God is just, right, and holy.
So you think unbelievers will be punished as they deserve. Why do they deserve eternal damnation? Why is damnation a just punishment for Jews who keep kosher and keep the Sabbath and Muslims who pray 5 times a day and Buddhists who live lives of self-sacrifice and meditation and Hindus who fervently worship their Gods - all as they were taught by their families and their cultures? I will admit that God's justice is beyond my comprehension but I cannot see that the damnation of worshipful and holy people has anything to do with any concept of justice which I can imagine. Not that damnation is not their lot, but I cannot ascribe such to the accomplishment of justice. That being said, I cannot comprehend a God who teaches love and unlimited forgiveness while damning billions of otherwise worshipful people because they did not hear the message of Jesus Christ. God has a large heart, and if God calls us to forgiveness, God must be capable of an incomprehensible degree of forgiveness. A theology which preaches nearly universal damnation does not comport with the forgiveness and loving kindness which we all agree that God is capable of.
No one deserves damnation because God loves us, each of us, not just some of us. Jesus Christ came to open up the gates of Hell so that no one need suffer damnation.
God's law is love, including love of enemy and unbeliever. Love and damnation have nothing to do with each other.
You claim to know the character of God's perfect and holy justice, and that we either get justice or we get mercy.
I hope we all get mercy for our failures and I pray none of us get "justice". I don't know how a genuine Christian can ever be nonchalant about justice being handed out to anyone - even if God dealing out the punishment.
We should cry for every soul who is lost and damned, and we should be praying for mercy and compassion on everyone of God's creatures.
Where is your heart?
Finally, you noted that God could have damned everyone but he chose to save some. That is a rather pessimistic view of creation and its creator. Why not formulate the statement in these terms: God could have saved everyone but was compelled to destroy some.
We need to grab hold of the message of love and hope which Jesus Christ delivered to us. We need to let go of condemnation and preference and exclusion and pray that God's love is greater than ours.
John
You're very good at what you do. You read something, in this case the Bible and my comments, and you come to conclusions that have little to do with what is actually written.
Your "theology" is one that you have invented, not one you learned from reading the Bible. You think God is what you want Him to be, rather than what He reveals Himself to be in Scripture. Very well, believe what you want.